How Do Minoans Change Your View of Western History?

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

How do Minoans change your view of Western history?  What does it mean that Minoan Crete's many superb achievements predate the Classical Greek world by over 1,000 years?

Consider one or more of Crete's highly advanced aspects---from the reach of their explorations and maritime trade, to their high and relatively peaceful standards of living, without any recognizable "kings"---and, if you will, discuss how it changes your view of what traditional education has always suggested about "the beginnings of Western Civilization."

For example, did "democracy" begin in Athens? Or did it have less obvious forms in the Minoan world? I'd love to know your thoughts on such questions!

[Chris]

I think alot depends on whether the original "eto Cretans" that used Linear A were Indo European (presuming the Mycenaeans were Indo European) or whether they were Semitic (from the Levant area) or even Afroasiatic/Egyptian. It would also be interesting to understand whether the 'Pelasgians' who by some accounts were the indigeneous inhabitants of Greece were indeed of the same family as the Etruscans. The Etruscans we know had their own script so if they were a branch of the Pelasgians perhaps the Pelasgians created the first European script.  

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

The older I get the more it seems that a huge important river of our history is completely "off the books." We're all back to the drawing board with the finds of tools at least 130,000 years old in the area of Plakias, Crete---i.e., who was the first indigenous Cretan element, and I think recent DNA studies suggest that Eteo-Cretans have connections also to very early central Europeans. Then confusingly there sure are elements from every part of the compass-dial in Minoan "blood and culture"....And I have always shared your intuition of connections among Pelasgians, Minoans, the many members of the post-Minoan "Sea Peoples" who had linkages through Gi/Pytogyah including Philistines, and then (when Philistines withdraw from the Middle East) the as usual "sudden, mysterious, highly advanced" appearance of Etruscans with so much in common: seagoing skills, social class fluidity, gender equality, celebration of this life, "high tech," building/construction, on and on....Good post!

[Chris]

So would I be right in assuming that you think it most likely that the Eto Cretans and the Pelasgians were not 'Indo European'? If I may ask another question; would you call the Theran (Santorini today) culture as 'Minoan' or semi Eto Cretan?

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

First reply is a complete/total GUESS that EteoCretans and Pelasgians were not Indo-European (btw, does "Indo-European" even exist in these discussions anymore?)....Second, wouldn't we have to say that people of Santorini today are Cycladic Greek?

[Chris]

I cannot claim to 'know with certainty' either but I would tend to agree with your guess. I would say the myths regarding the Minotaur and Theseus represent the first encounters of the Mycenaenian 'Indo European' people with this - to them - superior (culturally, economically and perhaps in naval matters) Cretan civilisation. Of course they didn't understand the significance of the bull in 'Minoan' culture - a bit like Moses was disgusted with the Israelites building a golden calf while he was receiving the Ten Commandments - the Apis Bull of Egypt is perhaps another similar custom, and so it became a Minotaur and perhaps some form of payment was at first made to the 'Minoans' for trade rights of some such.

Regarding the Cycladic Greek idea I would say that travel is alot easier today than it was 4,500yrs ago so people are able to change their abode alot more easily thus incomers and outgoers happen alot more so no I am afraid I would not class the people of todays Santorini as necessarily 'Cycladic Greek'.  

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

Certainly many of the native-born population of Santorini come from Cycladic (other Greek Island) family groups while many others, as you say, are mixed through migration...and I certainly think they call themselves Greeks!

What I try to show in my novel "Ariadne's Brother" is that while the Minoans were centuries more advanced and world-seasoned than the mainland groups either Indo-European and/or Mycenaean, the latter with their very different world-view, social structure etc. were probably just the right/wrong mixture of envy and headstrong ignorance to make them feel as if they were being "devoured"---i.e., their identities changed into someone/something else---by the pleasures and wonders of their contacts with Minoans. If you look at the Old Testament language it uses the same word for what seemed to be happening to supposed Israelites in Egypt. And, given the many new archaeological studies that characterize Minoans' foreign contacts---their coming to a new place for resources but building, developing and intermarrying, rather than invading/occupying---I suppose one would need a comforting story of a "decadent empire" and "man-eating monster that had to go" to justify to oneself (and to "the people" who likely know better) the greed, needless violence and idiotic waste that was the conquest of Crete. Minoans had been around for 2,000 years, the Mycenaeans take over and last maybe 300---so who had it right? A pleasure to discuss with you!

[Chris]

I shall be sure to find your novel and look forward to reading it. The 'truth' of any myth we can never approach by definition almost despite the theories put forward by Robert Graves in his "Greek Myths" books basically identifying the Heruclids with the Dorians. I would suggest that the Old Testament 'devoured' meaning you suggest is common and generally means 'seduced' - such usages of this language are recorded in late Medieval English and French even "devoured by the devil" where 'devoured' meant 'making a deal'. The Cathars are an obvious example so I am inclined to accept your understanding of this 'devouring' of these exotic (and therefore 'bad' - ie our leaders cannot provide you as well and are jealous) Eto Cretans in the eyes of the proto Mycenaeans on the mainland.

The question then becomes that if the Pelasgians were in some way in contact with 'Minoans' - or even related to them as I think you inferred - why did not the culture establish a serious hold on the mainland? Perhaps just a combination of 'bad timings'? That the 'Minoans' were about to when the first Indo European migration arrived? Of course this may well have been the case and from all we know of the eto Cretans they were are trading people rather than a warlike people, though I believe some scholars have suggested cannibalism as a part of their culture, and it certainly seems proven that human sacrifice was part of their culture (which relates more to Phoenician heritage, the later Carthaginians practicing similar rites). Churchill thought Russia was "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" but clearly he never studied Linear A or B or the riddle of ancient Crete.

Similary Sir a great pleasure to discuss such a fascinating topic with someone so well informed as yourself.

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

A very good (but now deceased) scholar Dieter Rumpel made one of the best arguments about the meaning(s) of The Phaestos Disk---an object that I do not normally go near. But, he says it records a small conflict between Minoans and "Achaians" of the mainland over the silver mines at Laurium, close to the area of Athens. (You can probably find this paper via Google, as I'm sure I did.) Perhaps the Minoans were generally content to see their culture borrowed and imitated on the mainland?

As for human sacrifice, in my small opinion, I think there is far too much sensational and careless work about it in the Minoans' regard, producing a general "easy agreement" that this was something normal for them. What we really have is A) the single definite example from Anemospilia in the Middle period, when massive earthquakes were going on, and this with various details suggesting that it was made by the person (not "the victim") voluntarily, like a supreme effort to appeal to "the gods" in a time of great fear. B) The finding of "children's bones with scrape-marks on them" at or near Knossos---To me, this really proves nothing about "cannibalism," since it was very ordinary and respectful practice in those times to remove the "meat" from a dead person's bones as part of special burial practices (called "excarnation"). Furthermore, if the "meat" was consumed, one can argue just as well (based on parallel examples from Native Americans) that consuming it was first of all a way to express the hope that the dead person would live or be reborn among the living again. This I believe explains a lot more of the Phoenician and Carthaginian cases too: their political rivals used this to make them look "bad" without understanding anything about it. But, of course, ignorant journalists who want to stir up blood-based "excitement" (or, try to prove that Minoans "were just as savage as anybody else") make more of this...

[Chris]

Thought this might be of interest to you; http://www.shef.ac.uk/news/nr/war-central-minoans-ancient-crete-1.235205 which has links to the main body pdf research.

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

Hello again Chris! Thanks for the link, and yes I've known about Molloy's argument since it appeared in 2013 and of course studied it. My main response is that for all its claims (and he's hardly the first to argue that Minoans had a military and knew war), his work is very top-heavy on social theory and very thin on direct, clearly visible Minoan evidence and examples. As I'm sure you know in general, academics across the anthropological disciplines are very uneasy about any culture that doesn't appear to fit their existing models. Tearing down the apparent exceptions is how young careerists make their bones, and what gets run over every time is the particularity of the culture in question.

The use of the word "utopian" sets up a straw-man into which it's then easy to fire one's arrows of assumptions about another dog-whistle, that derogatory but virtually useless term "human nature." Nobody of any analytical weight has ever claimed that Minoan warriors had "no significant role" in their society: ancient Crete had weapons and places of honor for men of martial skills, they protected their island, their shipping, and their trade-outposts, and they showed great exuberance in competitive sports.

But you have to wait for the violent takeover by mainland Mycenaeans and their full, fortified but very brief "bloom" to see a culture such as Molloy describes. They took virtually everything civilized from Crete: why should it surprise that they adopted Minoan weaponry? You can also look at the best analyses of Minoans' vs. Mycenaeans' behavior in their foreign contacts to see the differences in emphasis: where Minoans came to an island to develop a resource they were not fortified but mixed with/shared cultural traits with the locals over long periods, while Mycenaeans built familiar-style colonies, mixed very little and endured no longer than their home-culture's "stasis" or in-fighting allowed.

Molloy's claim that Minoan bull-leaping and other sports were training for war simply emphasizes what he wants to find in them while ignoring their other dimensions, meanings and purposes. Again, nobody of weight claims that Minoan peacefulness was perfect: what they do show is that violence increased exponentially with Mycenaean presence in Crete, and I suggest the specifics in works of Peter Warren, Jeffrey Soles and Christopher Nowicki on that, plus Driessen/Macdonald's 1997 "The Troubled Island"---all of which run evidentiary circles around Molloy's top-heavy generalizations.

Last for now, Molloy's suggestion of "elite manipulation" of Minoans for war-like purposes may fit neatly into academic assumptions about that chimera they call "human nature," but is miles off the mark in terms of evidence, which cannot show a single example of a domestic Cretan "overlord" or foreign imperialism. Crete's fiercely independent, heterarchic localities leave no such traces: quite the opposite, since there is not a shred of evidence of anything like a familiar "king" or imperial state in Minoan Crete. What we have instead is a loose confederacy of Cretan communities held together by strict limitations on central and individual power, a calendar-based system whereby polities competed in mounting festivals for prestige (like the Native American custom called "potlatch")---what Peter Warren called the use of "traditional practices" (feasting, sports etc.) rather than violence for mutually-beneficial political ends. Go and talk with Cretans of Lasithi Plateau even today, where Minoan DNA has endured most clearly: they know their own inheritance intimately, and will not stand for the dictates of any external force.

For me, the Minoan evidentiary details (it's all about the details) tells us at least one thing about "human nature": that people are good unless they get too much power. What I consider clear is that Minoans understood this---they could see the results of an opposite belief every day in their foreign neighbors, most of all in Egypt---and that they endured so long and so successfully because they devised and lived by their own system accordingly.

It's sad, and damaging to us, that know-nothing journalists are allowed to heap praise and authority onto works like Molloy's because it helps to reinforce the "naturally depraved" assumptions that keep us in place under imperial tyranny. But that is pretty much the game.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Chris [via Ancient Lights] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thought this might be of interest to you; http://www.shef.ac.uk/news/nr/war-central-minoans-ancient-crete-1.235205 which has links to the main body pdf research.

---

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[Aleister]

Hello Dr. Dempsey,

I don't know if you still keep up with this blog. It does seem to be rather quiet even at the best of times, so I won't blame you if I don't get a response. Even so, I thought I'd share how I came to be interested in the Minoan civilization, and what it is I find fascinating about them.

I first became interested in the Minoans when I was a young boy. I don't remember precisely why I found them so interesting, or what exactly I learned about them at that time. What I do remember is that I didn't yet understand their status as a distinct culture, or their importance in the historical scheme of things. At the time, I thought they were just a variant on the Ancient Greeks; after all, they had lived in Greece in ancient times, so were they not Greek?

Eventually, my interest shifted to other historical eras, including Ancient Egypt, the Age of Sail, and most especially the Victorian and Edwardian Eras. Much like history in general, I forgot about the Minoans for a long time.

Then, about a year ago, an online roleplay reawakened my interest in the Minoans with a vengeance. Since then, I've been ravenously devouring any information I can get my hands on about the Minoans. Unfortunately, that hasn't been easy. Much less has been written about the Minoans than other civilizations (although they're still doing better than some, like the Hittites). Also, much of the information I have been able to access is outdated, being written before or shortly after the excavations on Thera began; the most recent book I've been able to find was published in 2002. Even so, I like to think that at this point I know as much about the Minoans as an amateur can know; although I would very much like to know more about recent discoveries in the field.

As for what I find interesting about the Minoans, I could go on and on, but we'd be here all day, so I'll just iterate two main points.

Part of it is the mystery behind them. We have much less to work with, archaeologically-speaking, when it comes to the Minoans. Imagination and speculation are generally discouraged in the discipline of history, but with the Minoans, we often have no other choice. Old legends like those of Atlantis, or Theseus and the Minotaur, only add to the mystique, especially when archaeology reveals that they contain grains of truth. It all creates a more exhilarating mental playground than the cold hard facts of Egypt, Greece, and Rome.

Another aspect is that the Minoans were unique in their time and place. Some of their material culture seems like it belongs to a different era. Their engineering projects could have given the Romans a run for their money, and some aspects like flush toilets, tailored dresses, rapiers, handled "teacups", etc. would not be seen again anywhere until the Renaissance or later. Perhaps some Minoan innovations (including and especially intangible ones) elude us even now.

So there it is. I probably won't be able to engage in a two-way conversation about my rediscovered passion, but at least I can get it off my chest, and perhaps someone will see it.

Lastly, I apologize if my post is screwy for whatever reason. This is my first post here, and there isn't any obvious way to post in the main thread.

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

Hello Aleister----and Thanks for writing with your interest in Minoans. I hope that "Calendar House" here and its long list of information-sources are bringing you new adventures (more recent than 2002) in understanding them, for they certainly were "different" in many ways from their contemporaries and held onto their traditions for centuries after the end of Knossos and their three millennia of achievements from architecture to astronomy. While I'm dubious that "Atlantis" can tell us much about Minoans, the great substance of their world sure does put traditional history in new light---and for what it's worth, you might like this survey-article that can help put them in perspective. Always glad to discuss any aspect, and Thanks again---Best wishes, Jack D...... Enjoy https://jackdempseywriter.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/people-of-the-sea-life-beyond-the-catastrophe-cycle/ 

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Aleister [via Ancient Lights] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Dr. Dempsey,

I don't know if you still keep up with this blog. It does seem to be rather quiet even at the best of times, so I won't blame you if I don't get a response. Even so, I thought I'd share how I came to be interested in the Minoan civilization, and what it is I find fascinating about them.

I first became interested in the Minoans when I was a young boy. I don't remember precisely why I found them so interesting, or what exactly I learned about them at that time. What I do remember is that I didn't yet understand their status as a distinct culture, or their importance in the historical scheme of things. At the time, I thought they were just a variant on the Ancient Greeks; after all, they had lived in Greece in ancient times, so were they not Greek?

Eventually, my interest shifted to other historical eras, including Ancient Egypt, the Age of Sail, and most especially the Victorian and Edwardian Eras. Much like history in general, I forgot about the Minoans for a long time.

Then, about a year ago, an online roleplay reawakened my interest in the Minoans with a vengeance. Since then, I've been ravenously devouring any information I can get my hands on about the Minoans. Unfortunately, that hasn't been easy. Much less has been written about the Minoans than other civilizations (although they're still doing better than some, like the Hittites). Also, much of the information I have been able to access is outdated, being written before or shortly after the excavations on Thera began; the most recent book I've been able to find was published in 2002. Even so, I like to think that at this point I know as much about the Minoans as an amateur can know; although I would very much like to know more about recent discoveries in the field.

As for what I find interesting about the Minoans, I could go on and on, but we'd be here all day, so I'll just iterate two main points.

Part of it is the mystery behind them. We have much less to work with, archaeologically-speaking, when it comes to the Minoans. Imagination and speculation are generally discouraged in the discipline of history, but with the Minoans, we often have no other choice. Old legends like those of Atlantis, or Theseus and the Minotaur, only add to the mystique, especially when archaeology reveals that they contain grains of truth. It all creates a more exhilarating mental playground than the cold hard facts of Egypt, Greece, and Rome.

Another aspect is that the Minoans were unique in their time and place. Some of their material culture seems like it belongs to a different era. Their engineering projects could have given the Romans a run for their money, and some aspects like flush toilets, tailored dresses, rapiers, handled "teacups", etc. would not be seen again anywhere until the Renaissance or later. Perhaps some Minoan innovations (including and especially intangible ones) elude us even now.

So there it is. I probably won't be able to engage in a two-way conversation about my rediscovered passion, but at least I can get it off my chest, and perhaps someone will see it.

Lastly, I apologize if my post is screwy for whatever reason. This is my first post here, and there isn't any obvious way to post in the main thread.

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://ancient-lights.2342133.n4.nabble.com/How-Do-Minoans-Change-Your-View-of-Western-History-tp13p63.html

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[Aleister]

Thank you for your prompt response.

I haven't read Calendar House yet, but I will give it a read when I have time. I did read the post you linked to. It was very moving, and I agree on most of your points.

With "Atlantis" I was alluding to the Minoan city found at Akrotiri on Santorini (Thera), that many suspect to have been the inspiration for the Atlantis legend. Minoan Thera would certainly have seemed like a technologically-advanced utopia (and to be honest, it still does by the standards of the era) in the eyes of their Achaean neighbours, who at the time the city was destroyed were only just getting around to building palaces of their own. In truth "Atlantis" can indeed tell us a great deal about the Minoan civilization. The city was mostly buried under ash and pumice, and this has preserved remains to a degree not found on Crete. Whole frescoes have been found in-situ rather than scattered fragments as on Crete. Cavities formed by perishable materials that were enveloped and then rotted away have been filled with plaster casts, allowing us to reconstruct Minoan furniture, an opportunity we never would have had otherwise. Furthermore, much of the site remains to be excavated, so who knows what other wonders might turn up.

You mentioned three millennia of Minoan history, but I only count two, from the beginning of the Early Minoan (Pre-Palatial) around 3000 BC to the end of the Late Minoan (Neopalatial) around 1450 BC (or 1100 BC, if you also count the period of Mycenaean rule).

I suppose you are referring to your theory that the Cretans left their island in large numbers and settled in Palestine to become the Philistines. To be honest, I am skeptical of this theory. While the Bronze Age Collapse was a time of great population movements, going anywhere would have been problematic for the Cretans. The sea and the coastal lowlands were a no-go due to the depredations of the Sea Peoples, forcing the people into hilltop sanctuaries, which were the only safe place they could go. I suspect that the Philistines were merely an outgrowth of the Phoenicians (note the similarity of the name).

I suspect that if the Cretans migrated anywhere, they went not to Palestine, but to Italy, where they may have had a major impact on the burgeoning Etruscan civilization. Archaeological evidence shows that there was significant contact between Italy and Greece around the time of the Bronze Age Collapse. Egyptian Records also state that the Sea Peoples came from places called Shardana and Shekelesh, which sound a lot like Sardinia and Sicily. Since southern Italy was already well-populated, and also the source of the people who had caused such misery, the Cretans would likely have settled further north. Etruscan culture shows a number of Minoan features such as an exuberant love of life, relative gender equality, art that emphasizes movement and emotion over visual accuracy, and a knack for seafaring. This last is curious, considering that most Etruscan cities were located inland. It has also been discovered that the Etruscan language is similar to Lemnian, a language once spoken on the island of Lemnos (Lesbos), so an Aegean connection is plausible.

Lastly, I think I neglected to answer the question in the OP, so here's my answer. The existence and nature of the Minoans challenges many of the assumptions and dogma of European history. Traditional Western history begins with Iron Age Greece, continues through Rome, and focuses exclusively on those two until the Fall of Rome. Archaeological discoveries in Crete and elsewhere in Europe over the past century have revealed that civilization in Europe was both older and more widespread than was commonly believed. It reveals that ancient Europeans outside of Classical Greece and Rome developed sophisticated crafting techniques, constructed great public works projects, were keen and astute observers of the natural world, and developed complex and harmonious laws and social relations among themselves and with each other. Greek and Roman authors have coloured European history and culture through their own biases, and their way of living was not representative of the whole or even the majority. It puts the lie to the notion that Western civilization, indeed Westerners by their very nature, are inevitably driven to dominate and destroy the old and the other. The Minoans prove that it didn't have to be that way. Theirs was a way of life characterized by good living, equitable exchange, and harmony with their neighbours and their natural environment. We can do better, and we did, once upon a time.

[Dr. Jack Dempsey]

Hello Aleister---Didn't realize that by "Atlantis" you meant Akrotiri/Thera and yes of course that place appears to have a lot in cultural common with Minoan Crete. When I wrote of Minoans "three millennia" I guess I was rounding upward a bit since most archaeologists' time-lines begin at least around 3600 BCE and there are parts of Knossos dated far older than that, while some Minoan cultural and social forms persist all the way into Crete's so-called "dark age"...

The links between Crete-Cyprus-Palestine are no longer "theory" and if you go to the up-to-date sources cited in Chapter 9 of "Calendar House" you'll find quite a consensus on that. Some of them stayed in Crete's mountains and some of them clearly migrated away in small groups already connected by blood and trade with foreign lands (the original name of Gaza was "Minoa"). Yasur-Landau's "The Philistines and Aegean Migration" is one of the best recent ones, while YouTube has a host of lectures by contemporary diggers in the M.E. who lay out evidences in multiple forms. They certainly were not Semitic or post-Canaanite "Phoenicians" although on the latter end of time there may well have been some mixtures.

There sure is a world of similarity between Minoans and Etruscans but of all the research I've seen there is a world of evidentiary demonstration still waiting on that one! Too bad Etruria didn't prevail rather than Rome...

Very glad you liked the "Catastrophe Cycle" article and I hope Minoans go on transforming your and our time-line! We're a species in desperate need of some idea that we have done and can do better...

Always delighted to discuss! Very best regards, Jack